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In this episode, I sit down with Olivier Bernier, the award-winning filmmaker behind the powerful documentary Forget Me Not: Inclusion in the Classroom and co-founder of Rota6 Films. As a passionate advocate for inclusive education, Olivier brings a unique perspective to our conversation, both as a filmmaker and as a father fighting for his son’s right to an inclusive education. His documentary sheds light on the often-segregated world of students with disabilities and explores an alternative approach where every learner is included.
Key Discussion Points:
- Olivier’s Personal Journey:
Olivier shares his path into the world of education advocacy, sparked by his experience as a parent navigating the educational system for his son, Emilio. He discusses the emotional and systemic challenges families face when advocating for inclusive education. - What is Inclusive Education?
Olivier explains the definition of inclusive education—where students, regardless of ability, learn and grow together in the same classroom. We discuss how this model benefits not only students with disabilities but all learners. - The History of Special Education:
We dive into the dark history of special education, touching on the institutionalization of students with disabilities and how those legacies still affect the modern education system. Olivier highlights the importance of moving towards a strength-based approach that focuses on students’ abilities rather than their limitations. - The Role of Teachers and Schools:
We explore the barriers that prevent inclusive education from becoming the norm, such as the lack of training, resources, and support for educators. Olivier emphasizes the need for better funding and a shift to Universal Design for Learning (UDL) to create classrooms that accommodate all students. - Parent Advocacy:
Olivier discusses the burden placed on parents, especially those with limited time and resources, to become the primary advocates for their children’s educational needs. He shares how parents often feel overwhelmed by the responsibility of ensuring their child receives the support they deserve. - The Benefits of Inclusion:
The conversation highlights how inclusive education fosters a more diverse and supportive environment for all students. It teaches students empathy, collaboration, and how to engage with peers from different backgrounds and abilities.
Key Takeaways:
- Education as a Vital Profession: Teachers are shaping the next generation of leaders, and inclusive education plays a critical role in that process.
- Inclusive Education’s Broader Impact: Inclusion goes beyond intellectual ability or appearance. It’s about learning from and with one another to create a more equitable and understanding society.
- Historical Context: The legacy of institutionalization in special education still affects today’s practices, underscoring the need for a shift to strength-based approaches.
- Universal Design for Learning (UDL): This approach helps make classrooms more accessible to all students by designing lessons that meet diverse learning needs.
- Public Awareness and Advocacy: There’s an urgent need to educate the public about the benefits of inclusive education, not only for students with disabilities but for all learners.
- The Role of Funding: While funding for students with disabilities exists, it is often misallocated. Proper training, resources, and support for teachers are critical to making inclusive education work.
Tune into Forget Me Not: Inclusion in the Classroom to see Olivier’s journey firsthand and learn more about the importance of inclusive education. If you’re passionate about transforming education, consider supporting organizations like ALL IN for Inclusive Education, where Olivier serves on the board, to help drive change in your local schools.
Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast for more insightful discussions at the intersection of education and social justice!
Connect with Olivier:
Website: www.forgetmenotdocumentary.com or fmndoc.com
Facebook: @forgetmenotdocumentary
Instagram: @forgetmenotdocumentary
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Transcript
Brittney Carey (00:10)
Hi and welcome back to Conscious Pathways, the podcast where we explore the intersection of education and social justice through transformative conversations. I am your host, Brittney I am so excited. Welcome back.
As always, if you’re curious about Conscious Pathways, you can check out the show notes for more information on how you can interact with me. You can check out my Patreon for just $5 a month. You can join Patreon. You’ll get early access to this episode and more, as well as my newsletter, monthly live streams, and Ask an Expert, where you can ask a specific question that I can ask live on the air here to our guests.
Speaking of guests, today I am joined by filmmaker Olivier Bernier. He’s the producer and director of the award -winning feature -length documentary, Forget Me Not, Inclusion in the Classroom, and is a co -founder and creative director of the video production company, Rhoda 6 Films, specializing in documentary, branded, and commercial films.
Olivier sits on the board of All In for Inclusive Education, a nonprofit committed to advancement of inclusion education for all students with disabilities. Besides filmmaking, Olivier enjoys spending time with his wife Hilda and two children, Emilio and Camilla.
Forget Me Not is a film that provides a thought -provoking personal look into the segregation of students with intellectual disabilities and examines the alternative approach where every learner is included. Forget Me Not Inclusion in the Classroom is available for rent or purchase on major platforms such as Apple, Amazon, Google Play, and YouTube.
To learn more about the film or access for parents, you can visit the film’s website at forgetmenotdocumentary .com or fmndoc .com. Additionally, you can find out how to host your own community screening of the film on the website. It was such a joy to have Olivier on the podcast and to really talk to him about the film, the behind the scenes and the intention and the purpose. Oftentimes we look at special needs education and it is very separate from the general population and that is
kind of the heart of the problem that it is separated. And so throughout this conversation, we talked about why it’s separation, about what we can do in place of that. We’ve talked a lot about universal design for learning. I am so excited to bring this conversation to you. So let’s hop into it.
Brittney Carey (02:45)
Welcome to Conscious Pathways. Today I am joined by Olivier Bernier. Thank you so much for joining me.
Olivier (02:52)
Thanks for having me.
Brittney Carey (02:54)
I am so excited to have you on. To get started, do want to tell me a little bit about how you became interested in education? How did your kind of journey in that start?
Olivier (03:05)
Yeah, well, besides my wife being in special education, I personally didn’t have any experience in education before making the film. And it wasn’t until my son was born with Down syndrome that I realized I needed to learn something about it. But I also knew just from my wife’s experience that there was a big gap in education for people with intellectual disabilities. So I was always interested in the subject and, you know, I always believed
and still believe that education is really one of the most important professions in the world because we’re fostering the next generation of people that are going to run this world. So that’s the most important investment that I think a society can make is in their educational system.
Brittney Carey (03:53)
As an educator, I 100 % agree.
Olivier (03:57)
And teachers do not get paid enough. I will say that.
Brittney Carey (03:59)
No, no, no. We do so much and yeah, we just are not compensated well enough. And that’s a whole other advocacy issue. You know, especially in early childhood, we are just, I think the national average for early childhood educators is somewhere around like 11 or $12 an hour. And that is not enough.
Olivier (04:08)
Hehehehe
Yeah, I mean, you know, and not to go too far off topic, but especially when it comes to solving some of our biggest challenges, like how do we include students with disabilities in the general education class, we should be attracting the brightest minds to figure out how to do this because, you invest those dollars early and it’s just going to impact society in such a great way later on.
Brittney Carey (04:28)
Mm.
Yes.
Yes.
Exactly, exactly. It’s currently in most states with education, you have the general population and then special needs education is it’s very separated. In very few places do you actually see true integration happening. And I know as an educator and I’ve worked in inclusion schools where we had students with varying degrees of needs, had neurotypical.
and neurodivergent students all kind of in the one classroom. And I can say that the depth of that classroom was so deep and just the different ideas that we had in different ways. There was a lot more of finessing that I had to do on my end just to make sure everyone’s needs were met. And it’s going to look different. if you’re, you know, we’ll get into this later too. But if you’re willing and you’re able to learn and you’re willing to make those shifts, the classroom doesn’t always have to look the way that we
imagine classrooms to look like in education where all the kids are sitting down quietly in their chairs at all times, right? It can look a lot different. And when we allow education to look different, it’s really powerful. And it’s really powerful to see how things are, things can change when we kind of think outside of that box. that’s a whole, that’s a whole thing. But what were you doing before, you know, you got kind of
Olivier (06:01)
You
Brittney Carey (06:05)
in the documentary and into education.
Olivier (06:10)
Yes, so professionally, I’m a filmmaker. I’m a director and I spent years making both documentary films, but my income was based off of making commercial films and branded films, mostly in the documentary space. I’ve been on a lifelong journey of storytelling and when my son was born, as I was mentioning earlier, he was born with Down syndrome and I knew immediately that
Brittney Carey (06:22)
Mm.
Olivier (06:38)
you know, I felt it was my calling to try to make the world a little better for him with the only tool that I really have, which is filmmaking and storytelling. So I didn’t know what shape or form that would take. And, you know, as a couple of years went on and I was trying to search for the right project, an opportunity came up. There was a grant to make a film about inclusive education. And my wife and I had talked about kind of what we wanted for Emilio. And I knew that I wanted inclusive education, but I didn’t quite.
understand what it was and I didn’t know what the impact was. And I also naively thought, well, I live in New York. It’s really, you know, progressive here. And for the most part, and, you know, I think by now everybody’s just included. Everybody just learns in the same classroom. But, you know, going back to my experience when Emilio was born, I was just completely unprepared for him. I
didn’t have anyone with a disability in my family and I didn’t understand what Down syndrome meant. I honestly thought that he would not live a fulfilling life. And that was really scary in the moment to learn that information. So you’re, you know, kind of immediately grieving the child that you thought you were gonna have in the delivery room. And then you’re trying to understand what this diagnosis means. And you’re also just trying to understand if
Brittney Carey (07:51)
Mm -hmm.
Olivier (08:06)
It’s real. It just doesn’t feel real. It feels surreal. and you know, as I reflected upon it, you know, the months after he was born, I realized that the reason why I was so unprepared is that I had just never spent time with anyone that had a disability, a significant disability. And, you know, I thought back to my schooling and I never met anyone with a disability in my school and my high school had about 2300 students in it.
Brittney Carey (08:26)
Mm
Olivier (08:35)
So just statistically speaking, there must have been students with disabilities in the school, but we never saw them. And if we did see them, we probably wouldn’t have been very friendly to them because there wasn’t that culture. I just thought about that a lot. And I thought about what I wanted for Emilio. I wanted him to be with all the other students. And I wanted the other students to be with him so that they could grow up with a different understanding of the world than I grew up.
Brittney Carey (08:36)
wow.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Hmm.
Yes, yes, and that is such a beautiful thing, especially thinking about fully inclusive schools and when we are actually and authentically, everyone belongs in this classroom, everyone has ownership of this classroom. And it just reminds me of a conversation that I was having one day and we were talking about inclusion schools and this woman, stood up and so confidently said, she’s like, yeah, am I?
my son is neurotypical and he’s in an inclusion school and like all of his friends have like autism and all these different things and like he doesn’t even know that they have autism. Isn’t that amazing? And I’m like, well, I mean, their diagnosis is a part of them. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. They shouldn’t have to hide the autism, right? The autism, it’s there, it’s not going anywhere, right? And so it’s not about hiding the fact that they’re there. It’s not about making them, you know.
conform to being in that classroom. It’s about actually fully integrating everyone. No one needs to hide. You can show up as your full and authentic self and know that you’re in a space to do that and you’re in a safe space to do that. But that always stood out in my mind because it was just, I’m like, well, the point isn’t to make them hide. The point is that we don’t know that they’re there because that’s harmful and that doesn’t help people to grow. And that’s not part of the inclusion. The inclusion is that
they are there and we know they’re there and they’re allowed to be there and they’re allowed to exist exactly the way that they need to exist. And again, it’s just finding ways in the classroom that we can make room for that and that we could, you know, be fully authentic in our practices and being very flexible.
Olivier (10:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things I learned pretty quickly is that a lot of special educators or special education classes are there to almost try to teach the disability out of the child. And as you said, the, you know, Emilio is always going to have Down syndrome and he wears his disability on his face. You know, you see it when you see him and there’s no reason to hide that. There’s no, Emilio is just authentically Emilio and he’s always going to be Emilio.
Brittney Carey (11:01)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm
Olivier (11:11)
what we’re trying to do is to give him the tools to be the best version of himself.
Brittney Carey (11:17)
Yes, yes. And that’s so true. think that’s been one of a big critique with special education and something that I know advocates are actively trying to change. know educators are actively trying to kind of make that shift because for the longest time in special education, was we’re going to hide these people away. We’re going to put them away and we’re just not going to see it or look at them. And that was problematic for every reason possible.
And then we kind of shift in and do, okay, they can be in the schools now, but again, we’re just going to keep everybody separate. They’re going to have their own schools, they’re have their own things. And, you know, now we’re kind of looking at how do we actually be inclusive? And again, that’s not, you know, trying to train the disability out of them. That’s not trying to, you know, train autistic people to not stim, right? That’s just a part of the way that they exist in the world. So how can then, how can we build a better, you know, community?
that allows them again to show up as they are. And I can say my students with Down syndrome were just the most fantastic human beings. I’ve adored all of them. They are so funny. And just the way that they think about things, the way that they find things funny, just, I loved it and I adored it. I’m like, why would we not want to have, why would we not want more of this in our community, right? It just creates the rainbow of the community, which I love.
Olivier (12:39)
Absolutely.
Brittney Carey (12:42)
So in your initial, because I know you shared that initially you felt a little bit of grief and kind of learning with this diagnosis. that seems to be a pretty common sentiment, right? When you’re, no one really goes into having a child with the thought of like, I’m going to have a child with special needs or I’m going to have a child that’s going to need extra things. No one really goes into it with that. So there is that process of just grieving a bit of the child that you thought you were going to have and the life that you were thought that you were going to have together.
And so in that process, what challenges did you initially face in terms of advocating for Emilio’s right to have inclusive education?
Olivier (13:22)
Yeah, well, the challenges started pretty early. But the first two years, people were coming to the house and helping Emilio with therapy and services. And that’s called early intervention. And then when he hit about 2 and 1 that was time when we had to start thinking about getting him to preschool. And that’s kind when the challenges started. And
Brittney Carey (13:47)
you
Olivier (13:49)
I kind of buried the lead because I said that I thought New York would be progressive and that inclusive education was bountiful in New York, but New York happens to be not only the largest public school system in the nation, but also the most segregated by numbers. And, you know, that’s not only students with disabilities, that’s students of different races as well. And so there’s a culture of segregation in the New York City public school and
Brittney Carey (14:10)
Mm.
Olivier (14:16)
We knew off the bat that we wanted Emilio to be included. And I would say that it was predetermined that the school system would not follow IDEA and would start him in a segregated setting because when we showed up to his first IEP meeting, the recommendation was already drafted before they listened to a word we said, and they recommended him for a segregated preschool class. So that kind of started our
Brittney Carey (14:38)
Mm.
Olivier (14:46)
fight, I would say. And it was challenging. It’s emotionally taxing. But we decided at that point that we had to draw a line in the sand and say that we want Emilio to be included because if you don’t include him now, then he’s likely to never be included.
Brittney Carey (14:48)
Mm
Olivier (15:09)
you know, as most of your listeners probably know, IDEA says you should start in the least restrictive environment. And New York City wasn’t doing that. And in most cases, New York City doesn’t, public schools doesn’t really care because they rather just go to a lawsuit and then find a private placement for the student. So, you know, I think in 2021, there was over a billion dollars spent in both legal and sending students to private education.
Brittney Carey (15:20)
Mm
Olivier (15:38)
that they couldn’t find a place for in the public school system. So, you know, it’s a massive problem in New York City and we started there, we were living in New York City, but as we were doing research for the film, we realized that this is not only a New York City problem, this is a problem across the nation and internationally as well. So we started looking at, well, how do we tell that story? And I…
realized that to be able to tell that story, really just had to kind of follow my own journey of like learning about what inclusive education is, not being a professional and speaking to the right people. But I also wanted to learn from different families. So we spent a lot of time with different families that had either been through the fight or were going through the fight or had been successful and successfully included. And from that, I just gained so much energy and I felt like power.
Brittney Carey (16:14)
Mm.
Olivier (16:35)
because I had these stories behind me and these anecdotes and these experiences that I was able to kind of stand on the shoulders of as we were going through our own fight. So originally the film was not really going to be about Emilio at all. We just happened to kind of be going through that process at the same time. And as we saw Emilio begin to go down this track of being segregated, we decided to turn the cameras on our own family. And that became a large part of the film.
Brittney Carey (17:04)
That is, yeah, that must have been a lot of learning in terms of researching for the film, because I didn’t even know that about New York being like one of the more segregated, you know, spaces in education, because you would think that it would be a little bit more progressive. And so that’s always very surprising. Were there any other, you know, learnings that you learned either through research or learning through the families or just kind of on your own journey? Were there any other?
know, things that stood out to you that you were like, wow, I didn’t know this or wow, this is, this is absolutely like deeper than I ever expected it to be.
Olivier (17:41)
Yeah, I mean, I think everything that’s in the film, you know, the film, as I was saying, is really me going through that journey. So, you know, I’m learning as as the film is being made, essentially. And what I didn’t know was about the institutions and kind of the life Emilio would have lived had he been born, say, just 30 years earlier. New York had and most of the country had a really
Brittney Carey (17:48)
Mm
you
Yeah.
Olivier (18:13)
really horrible institutional system where people with disabilities were taken from the mother at birth and essentially put in these institutions that they called educational institutions, but really they were just left to their own devices. And what I learned from that is that a lot of what we see today in the educational system really stems from that era.
We no longer live with the institutions in the same way, but a lot of that thinking and a lot of the people that came from the institutions went over to the educational system and we’re still kind of dealing with a lot of those problems now.
Brittney Carey (18:56)
Yeah, the history of people with special needs within our country is, yeah, it’s heartbreaking when you start looking at it, you start hearing the stories and seeing the way that we thought about people. And today we come a long way in a lot of aspects, but as you’re mentioning, the system is still built off of that same concept or same idea.
and it’s not seeing people with varying degrees of need as highly capable, intelligent. We’re not seeing that strength -based asset -based way of thinking of people who still seeing it as a very deficit way of thinking. And that’s really hurtful for families and especially for these children’s education system, right? Because if our thoughts about them are deficit -based from their very beginning,
That’s gonna influence how we talk to them, how we treat people, how we approach their curriculum, right? If I already don’t think that you’re going to achieve much or have a good life or do all those different things, why would I put all this effort into building a beautiful curriculum and building a beautiful classroom, right? And so we see a lot of that still within, across the country, it’s very rampant. So while we have come a long way, we still have a long way to go in terms of really authentically.
making schools inclusive and not segregated. And so from your perspective, what does inclusive education mean and what does it look like?
Olivier (20:31)
Well, I think the one of my favorite definitions was in the film and Patricia Lamprand, the principal, former principal of the Henderson School in Boston, which is an inclusive public school. She said that. Inclusive education is when people learn with each other and from each other, and I just think it’s the most cleanest, most simple definition of inclusion, because we all learn.
with each other and from each other. So if suddenly you remove a student from the general population and you tell them you don’t belong, you can’t learn with the other students and from the other students, you create a problem and you disenfranchise them. So inclusive education is really just everybody learning with each other and from each other, no matter where they rank on intellectual ability, what they look like.
Brittney Carey (21:23)
Mm.
Olivier (21:24)
what their background is, what their socioeconomic status is, we all have something to learn from each other’s experiences. And most importantly, school is our first entrance into society. know, Emilio, before he went to school, he was largely with his parents and his cousins and, you know, neighborhood friends maybe, but, but, you know, school is the first time where a student goes into the world and has to kind of decide for themselves.
who they’re gonna be friends with, make their own pathways in society. And I think that is so important. And that can only happen if you’re put on the same playing field, so to speak. If you’re never allowed into the room with anybody else, then how do you make those connections, those lifelong connections that are gonna kind of propel you forward for the rest of your life?
Brittney Carey (22:11)
Mm -hmm.
Yes, it’s really mutually beneficial, right? So it helps our students with special needs, but it also helps our neurotypical students, right? Because like you said, they’re learning from each other. They’re learning all these great social emotional skills. They’re learning all these really great, you know, how to be a member of society, how to be a positive member of society, how to build a community, how to make friendships. Like all those really beautiful things are happening exactly like you said, within school and for a lot of students exactly like you said.
This is their first kind of entrance into that. How do I be a human? And school is kind of that space that helps us to start practicing those skills and doing those things. And the more that we just kind of see this as a normal part of our society, that people are going to look different, people are going to act different, people learn differently. Some people have very physical disabilities and some people have kind of the quote unquote invisible disabilities. And we’re all
we’re all humans and we’re all just trying to find our best way to be humans and exist together. And that’s really difficult when we silo everyone kind of in these different little silos, which is a big problem in education in general is that things kind of just get siloed out and then people are very separated and it can be really isolating in a lot of ways because we’re not actually forming an educational community together.
And so as you went through this journey, how do you, how have you seen kind of inclusive education, you know, over the, over the course of these last couple of years, how have you seen it change a little bit, or if you’ve seen it change at all?
Olivier (23:56)
Well, I think, I don’t know if I’ve seen it change, but my perspective on it has changed for sure. You know, I think that when I first thought about inclusive education, the goal was just to get Emilio in a classroom, like just let him in. And that was just the barrier. That was like the number one thing. And then as you learn more, you realize there’s good inclusive education and then inclusive education gone wrong.
Brittney Carey (24:25)
Mmm.
Olivier (24:26)
It’s much more than just sticking a child in the back of a classroom and leaving him to his own devices. And I think that’s true with any student really, whether they have a disability or not, is they have to be engaged. And someone with an intellectual disability probably needs more help accessing the education. I think I learned a lot about the different ways that inclusive education can be successful.
Brittney Carey (24:36)
Yeah.
Olivier (24:57)
and so certainly my perspective on what inclusive education should look like specifically has changed, but what hasn’t changed is the effect of my view on the effectiveness of inclusive education. I just, it’s just simple logic when you think about it, it’s, it’s really simple. It’s like, if you want people to be successful in life after school,
Brittney Carey (25:03)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Olivier (25:20)
then they have to understand how to function in a society and they have to understand how to be with other people. And that goes for neuro -typically developing children and children with disabilities. They both learn so much from that. So I think that, you know, the very basic level, if you remove all the, you know, all the PhD learnings and everything that goes into becoming a great educator, if you just look at that simple basic,
Brittney Carey (25:24)
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Mm
Olivier (25:49)
logic, then you realize that inclusive education is really the only way to go forward.
Brittney Carey (25:55)
Yes, major snaps to that. Because it’s so true. I think something that we talk about in education as well is, how do we make that bridge between theory and practice? Because all of the research tells us that this is the way, that this works, that this makes sense. So all the research is there. But then bridging that into how do we actually practice this in real world, because we know that education is
Olivier (25:58)
You
Brittney Carey (26:23)
so very important, but also, you we’re having a teacher shortage right now. And, you know, the budgeting is all over the place in terms of education. And that’s, you know, there’s disparities in that as well, but which schools get money and which schools aren’t getting the money, right? And so that leads us to having classrooms that are way over, you know, there’s too many students in one classroom and not enough materials and not enough adults, right? And so that, like you said, leads to problems.
and so it’s this really multifaceted issue with are we pouring enough, you know, actual money and funds into education for inclusive education to actually happen and be successful? And are we giving educators the proper education and kind of best practices and skills in order to be successful in an inclusive classroom, right? I remember my first couple years of teaching, you know, I studied child development and then I went into the classroom and
That was hard enough as it was. But then you add in students, have special needs, students with autism, students with other kind of sensory needs. And I just, I never learned without throughout my child development experience, I didn’t learn about disabilities. I didn’t learn about best practices in this. I didn’t know what I could do, what I couldn’t do. And so that added on that extra layer of stress of like.
I know there’s things I can be doing better, but I don’t have the skills. I don’t have the materials in order to actually do that. And it wasn’t until I got more education and I would go home every day and I would start doing research and I’d be on Google like, I have a child with autism, what do I do? And started learning more skills and practicing those skills in the classroom that I was like, okay, I think I’m getting the hang of this. And when I worked in an inclusive school,
I learned so much more from, you know, we had occupational therapists, we had speech therapists on actual on the site with us working with the students as well. And so I was able to ask them questions every day, like, am I doing this right? Or, you know, what can I what can I be doing to be the most helpful to my students in the classroom? And that helped me grow in a lot of ways. But yeah, going back to originally our
educators aren’t really given enough education in order to properly make sure that we are, you know, doing the best practices that we can. You know, we don’t have the funding and then you also go into just everything’s understaffed. Everything’s just kind of all over the place. So the state of education is its own thing in general. But that doesn’t negate. Yeah.
Olivier (28:58)
I will say though, I was just gonna say, the problem with students with disabilities is not funding. This country gives a lot of money towards students with disabilities. I think it’s how those funds are allocated is the real problem. And that’s separating schools in general versus students with disabilities who come generally with good funding to schools. But the problem is,
Brittney Carey (29:06)
Mm.
Mmm.
Mm
Olivier (29:26)
Inclusive education isn’t incentivized enough, maybe. And I think so it’s easier for a school to just receive that funding from the student and then kind of ship them off into their own classroom.
Brittney Carey (29:28)
Hmm.
Bye.
Mm, that is such a good point. Yeah, because there is separate funding. then I have heard that there’s the money’s there. And it’s so right. Like, what are we actually using this money on? Are we utilizing it in the best way possible? And shifting gears a little bit, in terms of special education, the parents and the guardians and the families, it leaves
Olivier (29:54)
Mm
Brittney Carey (30:06)
you know, them in this position where they have to be the advocates for their student in a lot of ways.
So in terms of special needs education, parents are often, you know, their child’s best advocate, right? And so there’s extra meetings that you have to show up to. There’s extra ways that you have to advocate, whether to the school board or to, you know, administration or the leadership at your school.
you’re constantly having to advocate. And for parents who don’t have the luxury to do that, whether you’re working multiple jobs or you’re going to school, you have other kids, you have other responsibilities, it makes it so much harder for some parents to be able to advocate and some people can advocate. Is that something that you’ve seen either throughout your journey in special education or your journey with your son? Is that something that…
You’ve kind of seen an experience where there’s a disparity between parents who can advocate and parents who aren’t able to advocate.
Olivier (31:01)
Absolutely. I think that I was in the best possible position to advocate for Emilio because I received a sizable grant to make a feature length film about inclusive education as we were trying to get my son put in an inclusive setting. And then I also just as a kicker happened to have a wife that was in special education. So I can’t imagine being in a better position than I was.
and it was still a full -time job and it was still challenging and we lost and we had to keep fighting and it was a process and it’s something that we go through every day now. I can’t tell you how many dinner conversations have been centered around what are we going to do next. So I can only begin to imagine what it’s like if you’re in a different position where you are a single parent or you are working multiple jobs or
Brittney Carey (31:38)
Mm.
Yeah.
Olivier (31:58)
You have multiple children. know, Amelia was our only child at that time. So I can’t, I can’t begin to imagine how I would have tackled it if I had been in that position. It’s too difficult. The information’s not readily available and it’s too easy to just listen to the professional advice that you receive that says your child will do better in a smaller segregated setting.
Brittney Carey (32:12)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Olivier (32:28)
So I think there’s a real lack of education for parents. And there’s also just a shortage of time to learn those things that you need to learn. And I saw it with the other families that I spent time with. Wesley, who was a child with Down syndrome, his mother had removed him from his class because they wanted to put him in a segregated setting. And she said no, she said she was gonna homeschool him.
and she had to basically, she was a single parent and she had to basically go from working five days a week to one day a week in order to support her child. That puts a huge emotional stress on the family. puts huge financial stress on the family. And really what we’re talking about is just Wesley was born with Down syndrome and he just wants to go to school with everybody else. Like when you really look at it in the most simple terms.
That’s all that pain was caused just because of wanting to really have his civil rights, human rights. And there’s other examples from the film as well. Aidan, who was an older child with Down syndrome, wasn’t allowed to go to the same school as his brother and sister. And his parents basically who…
Brittney Carey (33:32)
Yes. Yes.
Olivier (33:51)
his dad was a lawyer and basically spent 80 -90 % of his time fighting through the courts to have his son placed in the same high school as his brother and sister. So that was a battle that went on for years.
Brittney Carey (34:10)
Yeah, yeah, and that’s, again, it’s heartbreaking, right? Because you shouldn’t have to be a lawyer in order to get your child to be in a space where they belong, where they’re supposed to be, right? And my heart does break for the families who, again, they don’t have the time or the money to fight to get the lawyers to, you know, show up to, like I said, every single meeting that you have to show up, show up to the school board, show up to…
you know, these leadership meetings, you know, showing up and meeting these teachers and just making sure because you can have your IEP or your 504 plan. But on top of that, which is always confusing because that’s a legally binding document. So it does blow my mind sometimes when people just don’t respect it, you know. But, you’ll have students with IEPs and then their IEPs aren’t being done in the classroom or.
There’s just extra steps that aren’t being done in the classroom to make sure that, again, it is actually truly inclusive and authentically inclusive. So my heart always breaks out for these families. If there’s a family who’s currently going through something like that right now, what would be your biggest advice to them?
Olivier (35:16)
My biggest advice would be to stay the course. I think it’s really easy to give up. And I think the most important thing to remember is that for every student that gets included, they’re just opening a floodgate for students after them to get included. So you may think you’re only advocating for your child and that you’re spending all your time for this one student, but really what you’re doing is you’re changing the hearts and minds within the schools, within the other parents and your
slowly, generationally changing the mindset of what inclusive education is and who should be allowed in the general education classroom. So I think what I would say is the most important advocacy work you could do is just by having your own child included and staying the course. You know, follow up to the other stories I was talking about with Wesley and Aidan, know, Wesley eventually did get included in the New York City public high school.
Brittney Carey (36:04)
Mm.
Olivier (36:17)
His mother Kim fought and fought and she eventually found an opening and now she’s helping other people do the same. And also with Aidan, his father succeeded in winning the court case and he was allowed in his high school in the final year, in his 21st year, he was allowed to go, or 20th year, I should say, 20 years old, was allowed to.
go to his high school. And it’s sad that so much time was wasted. But they were successful and it’s a fight worth fighting.
Brittney Carey (36:51)
Mm
It is a fight worth fighting, absolutely. And I love that you mentioned that it opens up those floodgates, right? So one student obtains that inclusion and now the door is open, right? More families now have access to that. And so while it is an arduous and struggle bus kind of journey, it is absolutely worth it because of the impact that you can have, not just on your own child, but the other children who will then kind of.
walk that same path now who the door is now open for them to walk through. And so
Olivier (37:31)
And you’re also, I was just gonna add to that, that you’re also forcing the schools to find a way to include children. You’re changing fundamentally the systems that the schools are employing. You can’t teach a student with an intellectual disability the same way you have been teaching since the 70s or 50s, you know, in front of a blackboard lecturing.
Brittney Carey (37:46)
Yes.
Yep.
Olivier (37:57)
That’s not the best way for any learner, really. So you’re forced to change the way a classroom functions. in doing that, you’re not only improving the classroom for the student with an intellectual disability, but you’re also improving the classroom for the most advanced learner as well.
Brittney Carey (38:01)
Yeah, not really. No.
Yes, yes, it’s, you know, meeting the learners where they are and kind of differentiating our instruction. I think for a lot of educators that tends to be the scariest part of like, now I have to differentiate my instruction for all the students. And that’s not necessarily the case. You can do a singular lesson and you can provide so many different opportunities for accessing that lesson. Right. And it’s not, you know, we’re not asking you to do.
10 hours worth of work per lesson to differentiate everything for every single student, but it’s thinking about who’s going to be able to access this? Am I doing this in a visual way? Do I have other ways of accessing this information? it is there an audio? Is there way that they can actually get up and practice this with their hands and just kind of thinking about these things and incorporating these things? You know, I think there’s one one thing that I’ve been learning so much about lately is like universal design for learning and
That’s the kind of one of those core principles of, you UDL is, okay, how am I designing this so that all learners have access to it? Right. And it takes a little bit of learning. It’s a different way of instruction. But honestly, we need a different way of instruction in education because the way that I’ve seen so many PowerPoints, I’m an adult and I don’t want to see a PowerPoint. So like, I can’t imagine these students as soon as you bring up PowerPoint, I just, you’ve lost them. You’ve lost them immediately.
Olivier (39:42)
Blaze over.
Brittney Carey (39:43)
They just glaze over. It just reminds me of way back in the day when we had the projectors and you had to put the sheet on there and it’s just like, I had to look at the sheet again. It’s just bringing back memories of those darn sheets. But we’ve been overdue, yeah, for change in education.
Olivier (39:51)
yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No, you’re right.
Yeah, and going back to your point earlier about a classroom being a place full of activity and life versus a place where everyone’s kind of seated and staring at the same focal point. If you go in a corporate office, it’s very rare that you go to an office these days. For example, they put ping pong tables in offices now, and that’s for a reason. People need to stretch out, they need to be themselves, but also they just need movement and different ways of working.
Brittney Carey (40:27)
Mm -hmm.
Olivier (40:32)
Some people like to stand, some people like to sit, some people like to work from home, some people like to be in the office. So if it’s working for corporations, then I think it should work in schools as well.
Brittney Carey (40:44)
Mm -hmm.
I 100 % agree. When I was in an office, I requested to have a yoga ball. So I would just be on my yoga ball, like working, and I’m just like bouncing in the corner, living my best life. But I got so much work done on that yoga ball. That was the most productive version of me. But yeah, you’re so right. We do that in workspaces. And, you know, as an adult, I’ve had to learn the best ways that I learned.
You know, I’ve learned more recently that I’m a very kind of like visual learner. So if you’re just telling me directions, I’m not, it’s one ear out the other. like, no, I cannot comprehend you telling me these directions. Put the map in front of me. like, okay, cool. I’m oriented. I know what I’m doing. And so just, I’ve had to learn so many different ways about how I learn and what environments I learn best in and.
We can definitely do that in education. And again, it’s a different way of doing it. It makes us completely reimagine it and look at it in a different way and look at it in a way that kind of learners and sort of centers their learning experience, that it doesn’t always have to look the same, that we’ve been doing it since the 50s and 60s. In fact, it probably shouldn’t look like the way we did it in the 50s and 60s.
more use of technology, we have so much more things that are just different. And we also understand how people learn now. And that’s not by sitting them in front of a screen and showing them things, right? People learn when we are actually doing the thing, when we can actually practice what we’re learning. So that’s so much. But looking ahead, what kind of changes or initiatives do you think are going to be necessary for really promoting inclusive education on a bit more of a broader scale?
Olivier (42:29)
Well, I think you brought up the key one, which is implementing UDL, Universal Design for Learning. I had the opportunity to speak to David Rose, who was one of the originators of UDL with his organization. And that was just a fascinating interview. going back to how the sausage is made with filmmaking, we actually started with a four -hour film. And there was kind of two films. There was this very cerebral film with
Brittney Carey (42:35)
Mm.
Mm.
Olivier (42:59)
what does an inclusive classroom look like and how do we make it work? And then there was the more emotional film of why inclusion is important. And we decided to make the more emotional film in the end, but we spent so much time interviewing and learning about what makes a successful inclusive classroom. And I think David Rose put it really simply. He said, the way you teach all learners is you create a ramp.
Brittney Carey (43:16)
Hmm.
Olivier (43:27)
for learners, you create the same way that for people in wheelchairs, we created ramps. Well, guess what? Able -bodied people walking actually use that ramp as well, because it’s actually a better way to get to the door. And delivery people use it now. so something that was created for people with disabilities actually benefits everybody. And I think that’s kind of the most
Brittney Carey (43:29)
Hmm.
Olivier (43:55)
simple explanation that I’ve heard for UDL and why it’s important for non -education people like myself to understand it. We need to create that ramp for learners so that everybody can climb on and get to the door.
Brittney Carey (44:12)
Exactly, exactly. And when we are creating our curriculum in our classrooms and our community with all of our learners in mind, right, making sure that everyone has access, that it makes sense for everybody. That’s when you really start seeing these, this beautiful community start emerging and, you know, people are more mindful, the students are more mindful when they’re kind of aware of these things and they start working towards these goals.
And even the ideas that they start coming up with after you have schools that have been fully included, the ideas that they’re coming up with, the creativity that they’re coming up with is, it’s the most beautiful thing in the world to see as an educator walking into that space, feels different seeing how people talk to each other. It feels so much different. It’s like, this is what it’s supposed to be. This is what we’re trying to do.
Olivier (45:00)
Mm -hmm.
Brittney Carey (45:02)
And so I know that can happen on a broader scale. I fully believe in the power of UDL. So it’s just something that I’ve been really curious about learning about the last couple of years or so. But thinking of transforming education, how do you reimagine education?
Olivier (45:21)
Well, think when I started the project, I thought that we could have both segregated settings and inclusive settings for people that wanted segregated settings. And as we made the film and we’ve been touring around the country and seeing different school systems, it’s just been a really great opportunity to kind of learn about what works well and what doesn’t. And I’ve now been to a couple of different school districts, but notably,
Westland School District out in Portland and the Henderson School, which we filmed in that just they tried to make it work with both segregated settings and inclusive settings. And in the end, they just couldn’t. And they said, you know what? We need to just get rid of the segregated classrooms and we need to figure out how to make it work, because if you’re not committed, it just won’t happen. And, you know, it’s. You know, if you look at these school districts.
they’re not spending more, they don’t have bigger budgets than the schools around them. Really what they’re doing is they’re re -appropriating the talent within their schools and they’re re -educating the people that are within their school district to implement better practices such as UDL, for example. So I think that as we re -imagine the school systems, we need to…
to really have a serious conversation about completely removing segregated settings. And I’m not saying that there can’t be still pullouts or whatever is necessary. It’s necessary for Emilio sometimes to be pulled out and I’m not like agnostic there. I think that there is a value to him having one -on -one time sometimes. But as a fundamental difference from…
Brittney Carey (46:53)
Mm
Yeah.
Olivier (47:11)
today, I think in the future, we need to just get rid of segregated settings because I don’t think anybody has a better experience in the segregated setting. And it goes for both the teachers as well. think that so much of the work is done just with students themselves. I think that Emilio learned so much just from being around his neurotypical peers. And that’s something you can’t teach. You can’t teach that in a bubble.
Brittney Carey (47:21)
you
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Olivier (47:40)
and it’s just from him observing and seeing people speak and seeing how they act with each other, he’s learning that as well. So I just think that in the future, you know, we just need to move beyond this idea of segregating children. And lastly, I’ll say that there needs to be a piece where we educate the public, not only families with disabilities, but
families who might not think about segregated and inclusive settings. If I hadn’t had Emilio, I would never think about special classes. But now I hear the term special class and I’m like, there’s nothing special about that class. What you’re doing is you’re taking Emilio and you’re sticking him in a room of peers that have the same maybe level of intellectual disability.
And you’re telling him that he belongs there because he was born differently than everybody else. It’s just segregation. And it’s not right. It’s not something, it’s not a value that we believe in and it’s not something that should be able to go forward. So I think if I were to rewrite the laws on this, I would just say that it’s not only a least restrictive environment, it’s just an inclusive environment period.
Brittney Carey (49:05)
I’m gonna let that sit there. I need to let that sit there and marinate for a moment because that was beautiful and I couldn’t agree with you more. Just we can’t do this if we’re not fully committed. You know exactly what you said. Either we’re either we’re all in and we’re not doing it right and the benefit of us doing it is so beautiful. Why would we not? And you know I know as me as an educator I loved learning.
more from the occupational therapist, speech therapist, ABA therapist, whoever could come in the room and tell me their knowledge. I loved it. I was like, please tell me more knowledge. I will take this. want to, I want this classroom to work. I want this classroom to be inclusive. and you know, we can only do that when we’re learning from each other and really meeting each child where they’re at. Right. And so that might mean, you know, different practices, different ways of addressing things, different ways of addressing behavior, but there’s no way of getting
through it than other than, you know, working together and, you know, forging that. So I want to thank you so much for joining me and sharing your story. Where can my audience find you?
Olivier (50:14)
So our film is available for streaming. You can see where it’s available for streaming on forgetmenotdocumentary .com or fmndoc .com. You’ll see all the places, but it’s on Amazon, it’s on Apple. I think there’s still a place you can see it for free with advertising, but it’s on all the major streamers. If you’re looking it up on Google, look up Forget Me Not Inclusion in the Classroom.
On the webpage, we also include some resources for parents that are going through a similar journey that I went through to help them. And there’s a lot of information out there. And I hope we, on the website, we share some useful information. And then other than that, I think we made the film to share. This film is to inspire people.
You know, so I think that the more people can share the film, the more people that can, you know, hold screenings. There’s on the website, there’s a way to sign up to do community screenings that are free. There’s no charge for it. And, you know, so the more we can get the message of inclusion out there, I think the better. hopefully the film has a little piece in getting that conversation started.
Brittney Carey (51:39)
Yes, thank you. I’ll have all of that linked in the show notes as well. So if you’re curious about the film, about the work that they’re doing and all of that, you can click on all the links below. Again, Olivia, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your knowledge and sharing your story. It’s a beautiful film. So if you guys want to check it out, just click one of the links below. And yeah, thank you so much for joining me.
Olivier (52:02)
Thank you so much for having me and thanks for all the work you put into this podcast and getting the message out about inclusion.
Brittney Carey (52:11)
Yes, absolutely. Can’t stop on stuff. Thank you.
Olivier (52:14)
Thanks
Brittney Carey (52:18)
Thank you so much for tuning into Conscious Pathways. Don’t forget to like, follow, subscribe to Conscious Pathways wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to share or leave a rating or review. It really does help the podcast to grow and find more listeners just like you. And until next time, navigate your conscious journey with courage and kindness, and I’ll see you there for more transformative conversations in education. Bye.