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In this episode of Conscious Pathways, I am joined by Dr. Sarah M. Toutant, Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at the Childcare Resource Center and an expert in advancing equity in higher education. Dr. Toutant shares her journey from studying education policy to becoming a passionate advocate for social justice, representation, and inclusivity in academia.
We dive into her experiences as a DEI leader, exploring the importance of faculty and staff reflecting the diversity of the student population and how higher education institutions can better serve underrepresented students. Dr. Toutant offers insights on measuring the success of DEI initiatives, the challenges of this work, and strategies for preventing burnout in a demanding field.
Our conversation also touches on the transformative role of student activism and the need for institutions to involve young voices in decision-making. Dr. Toutant shares her vision for reimagining education as a more inclusive, accessible, and supportive system that prepares students for life beyond college.
Join us for an inspiring discussion on building a culture of inclusivity and the hope that one day, DEI work will be so ingrained in every aspect of society that it won’t need to exist as a separate field.
Takeaways
- Advocacy, social justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion are important aspects of higher education.
- Representation and inclusivity in higher education are crucial for creating a positive student experience.
- DEI work can be challenging and lead to burnout, so it’s important to prioritize self-care and take breaks when needed.
- Building a supportive community and finding satisfaction in the present are essential for navigating the challenges of DEI work.
- Measuring the success of DEI programs and initiatives involves collecting data, setting goals, and creating a culture of inclusivity. The ultimate goal of DEI work is for it to become embedded in every aspect of society.
- Institutions need to listen to and engage with students, involving them in decision-making and creating a community within educational institutions.
- Educators can start by recognizing and building on the inclusive practices they are already implementing in the classroom.
- Reimagining education involves making it more inclusive, accessible, and supportive, as well as providing better support for students transitioning to post-graduate life.
- Transferable skills gained through education can open up a wide range of career opportunities.
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Transcript
Brittney Carey (00:11)
Hi and welcome to Conscious Pathways, the podcast where we explore the intersection of education and social justice through transformative conversations. I am your host, Brittney and I am so excited to have you here. First things first, if you would like to support the podcast, you can join my Patreon. I’ve linked that in my show notes below. You can join the Patreon for just $5 a month. You get early access to this podcast, my newsletter, monthly live streams, as well as you can do an Ask an Expert.
which means you get to ask me specific questions that I can ask on the air for our guests to answer. And if you want to join that, again, that’s in my show notes below. It helps support the podcast. I have a dream of eventually getting a podcast editor. And so that will actually help me support that. And that will free up a lot of my time and space to do more for this podcast and expand my reach. So if you want to support me, you can do that there. As always, just listening to this podcast episode and sharing it with your friends and your people and your colleagues.
That helps me out a whole lot. So I appreciate you all for doing that and being here. With that said, I want to introduce this week’s podcast guest, which is Dr. Sarah Toutant. Dr. Toutant is a director of diversity, equity and inclusion at the child care resource center, which employs over a thousand staff as one of the largest nonprofits in the state of California. She earned her PhD in urban education policy from the university of Southern California, USC.
Dr. Toutant invests herself in causes academic, professional, public, or otherwise related to advancing equity and developing anti -racist practices. Dr. Toutant is an experienced DEI consultant who has assisted companies and organizations with installing practices that prioritize equity. I learned so much through this conversation with Dr. Toutant. She is just a fantastic woman, great knowledge. We talked about higher education.
We talked about DEI in the workplace and how we can help support that and what that looks like from a systemic perspective. And especially how we can support students in their activism and how we can support teachers in their activism in higher education as well. This is a great conversation, whether you’re in higher education, whether you’re interested in DEI work, whether you’re interested in doing that in your classroom. We talked about all of it. So let’s hop into that conversation.
Brittney Carey (02:36)
Thank you for joining me on Conscious Pathways. Welcome. I’m joined by Dr. Sarah Toutant Thank you so much for joining me.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (02:44)
Thank you for having me, I’m excited to talk.
Brittney Carey (02:47)
So excited to have you on here. Tell me a little bit about your background in education.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (02:55)
Sure, so I have always been passionate about higher education specifically and I started at the University of San Francisco as an undergraduate student and then I navigated to my master’s and PhD in education policy specifically at the University of Southern California USC. So, you know.
Throughout my journey in higher education, I have been passionate about advocacy, social justice issues, equity, diversity, and inclusion, and really creating a really good experience for students on campus. I have now matriculated outside of higher ed, but I definitely still have strong ties to academia and higher education.
Brittney Carey (03:39)
Yes. And what kind of inspired you to want to start studying education policy? Like, what was your thought process going into that kind of program?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (03:49)
That’s such a great question. know, honestly, when I first started thinking about higher ed, it really was focused on students. I was specifically interested in student affairs and the way that students are engaged with staff and faculty on campus, right? And what the student experience is and where can students go to find support, right? And that was my original motivation. But then when I…
Brittney Carey (04:13)
Hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (04:17)
got into the PhD in education policy was because I thought I wanted to be a professor. And I thought I wanted to really kind of, you know, be the change that I academia needs to see and have more people and more professors, people that look like me, right? And, you know, although that didn’t end up being my ultimate career path, I still think that higher education has a long way to go as it pertains to.
Brittney Carey (04:22)
Okay.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (04:46)
ensuring that students have faculty and staff that are representative of the population of students. you know, it’s something that I miss, engaging with students like I used to, but I still find ways to support as I can.
Brittney Carey (04:53)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yes, yes, and that is something that I also didn’t realize was so important because my higher education journey started in community college and I feel like that was pretty representative of like, you know, who we were. But, you know, when I got my bachelors and I went in person, you know, it’s a primarily Hispanic serving institution and all of my professors were pretty much people of color and
Dr. Sarah Toutant (05:22)
Right.
Mmm.
Brittney Carey (05:35)
I had never experienced something like that before until, you know, I went to this specific school and I was like, this is nice. I see myself everywhere and walking through the halls and there’s just brown people everywhere. It was, it was an eye -opening experience.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (05:49)
Right, right. And for so many people, that’s not the case in terms of being a diverse range of folks. And, you know, I think that there’s still a long ways to go to ensure that there is representation. And then even beyond that, that just because you have a diverse space or a diverse population that there are
Brittney Carey (05:55)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (06:13)
being included and they’re being treated equitably. So I hear you. hear you.
Brittney Carey (06:19)
Yes. And on that subject of, you know, diversity and equity, tell me a little bit more about the work you’re doing now since you’re out of the higher education kind of field. But what are you doing in this moment?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (06:30)
You know, it’s so funny because if you were to tell me five years ago where I would be now, I would not believe you at all. And not in a bad way, just because I think that life has a way of surprising you and that anyone’s career journey is exactly that. It’s a journey. And I think that it’s so important to be open to what transferable skills you might have.
Brittney Carey (06:47)
it is.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (06:55)
So currently I’m a director of diversity, equity and inclusion for a large policy and advocacy nonprofit organization. And we have about 1300 staff and it’s a massive undertaking to say the least, but I oversee all of our diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives.
Brittney Carey (06:56)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (07:16)
as it pertains to employees and ensuring just like I used to ensure that students had an equitable and inclusive experience on campus. Now I do the same but for employees in the workplace. it’s similar work in the sense of the diversity, equity and inclusion and that piece but it’s a completely different field with different challenges and positives as well. It’s not higher education, I’ll tell you that.
Brittney Carey (07:26)
Mm.
Yeah.
I’m making my first kind of steps into higher education, so I’m sure I’ll look back on this conversation and be like, you know what? I know what you were saying. I’m picking up what she’s putting down now. So as most people know, DEI work over the past couple of years has been under a lot of scrutiny.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (07:56)
Right.
Yeah.
Brittney Carey (08:10)
How has that experience been for you? You know, practicing it and training on it and mentorship and all of that.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (08:18)
Yeah, that’s a great question. And to be honest, I’m so kind of navigating it because I’ll start with this. I think that if you want to go into diversity, equity, and inclusion work, it does have a large kind of burnout rate just because it’s people work. Anything that relates to people, you’re going to get a large burnout rate or turnover rate perhaps.
Brittney Carey (08:41)
Mm
Dr. Sarah Toutant (08:44)
I’m currently kind of navigating that because it’s interesting. Unlike other fields of focus, DEI is very much linked to what’s going on in the socio -political climate at the time. So if we take ourselves back to 2020, the murder of George Floyd, DEI was, we have to invest in it. This is where we need to go. This is the future. We need to ensure that companies and higher education and
Brittney Carey (08:58)
Yep.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (09:12)
whatever type of institution, medical field, higher education, nonprofit, corporate, didn’t matter that everybody had to have a DEI team. Now what we’re seeing is what I would consider an attack on DEI. But I mean, if you look historically, there’s always been an attack on advocacy. There’s always been an attack on…
Brittney Carey (09:23)
Yep.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (09:36)
standing up for the most minoritized. So I just think that this has been going on for decades. So I just think the field’s gonna continue to shift and change as anything does. Maybe it won’t be called DEI in five years. Maybe it will be called something else. I don’t know. But.
Brittney Carey (09:51)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (09:59)
I think that the companies and the organizations and the institutions of higher ed that are doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work correctly, they’re not necessarily phased because they know how to navigate the turmoil, right? And if you’ve really been doing the work and it’s not performative, it’s not going to be too difficult to figure it out. What I will say is difficult is what I tied back to the beginning, which is the burnout.
Brittney Carey (10:07)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (10:28)
seeing what might be being said about DEI, constantly trying to have to convince and share with people what it actually is and what it’s not. But in my career, I can say 10 times out of 10, really, when I explain what diversity, equity and inclusion is, people are pleasantly surprised and are like,
Brittney Carey (10:38)
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (10:53)
Well, that doesn’t sound that bad. Like that sounds like a good thing we should all be doing. And I’m like, right, it does. It really does. We should be inclusive of all people. Yeah. We should be mindful that some of us might need a little bit more support than others. Yeah. We should be mindful that when you have diversity, that ideas and innovation increase. Yeah. Like, so anyways, I was going off on a tangent.
Brittney Carey (10:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
I was right there with you, was like, yeah. And you brought up a really important topic, especially when it comes to DEI work, because a lot of the time, the full grunt of the effort and the full grunt of the work is falling on the shoulders of BIPOC people. And burnout is incredibly high with this kind of work, right? what kind of strategies or what kind of ideas
you have with people who are doing this work to kind of either taking care of themselves and preventing burnout or what can companies do to also support people doing this work.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (11:47)
night.
you gotta take a vacation. I’m on vacation right now. I’m on vacation right now. You know, I think that you really, really have to do a few things. I think for me, and I could just speak from my experience, one of the things I do is I definitely take breaks when I need them. And that break can look like a day and it could look like two weeks, which is what’s happening right now. It can look like…
Brittney Carey (11:56)
Mm. Yes. Yes.
Mm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (12:17)
you know, ensuring that I’m blocking off enough time for myself outside of work to understand that I have a life outside of the day to day. That is so important. And I think whether you’re in higher education or you’re somewhere else, unplugging from work is critical. Especially if you’re in DEI work. Another thing that I do as a DEI practitioner is
Brittney Carey (12:27)
Mm.
Yes.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (12:45)
I think I cannot constantly have my DEI hat on. I will be in a movie and I will be like, that’s not really inclusive or they should have done this. I can’t do it. I have to turn off my switch just so that I relax and not… It is so difficult. I know it really, really, really is. But I noticed that
Brittney Carey (12:50)
Hmm.
Hmm.
That is so hard. It is so hard.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (13:11)
I need it, because if I don’t, I’m just angry all the time. I’m just upset. And then I think another thing that I like to do is I like to make DEI work fun. like to make it, you know, with the workshops that I might do or the way I talk about it or how I might make a joke. Like these are the…
Brittney Carey (13:13)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, understandable. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (13:35)
I keep it, I approach the work with candor is what I try to do, radical candor. And I think that really helps me also not.
Brittney Carey (13:38)
Mm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (13:45)
to avoid burnout a little bit. I think also companies need to understand companies are places of higher ed. Whoever your diversity, equity, and inclusion team is, I think it’s really important to be mindful that this work does and will take a toll on you. But what about you though? mean, I’m sure you hear about DEI all the time and how do you kind of navigate unplugging, if you will.
Brittney Carey (14:01)
you
Yes.
Yeah, I think a lot of what you mentioned, like you just have to know when to take your break. You know, especially I know Mia is just a black woman. I tend to just do the most at all times always. just constantly doing the most. And so.
It can be hard to recognize that in yourself when you are needing a break because we just tend to keep pushing and keep pushing because you you get that mentality of like, because I can, but just because you can keep pushing does not mean you should keep pushing, right? And one of the most interesting like pieces of information I learned about burnout is that
once you cross that threshold into like you are now burned out, it can take up to like three to five years to get back to kind of homeostasis to where you feel like you’re out of it. And that’s something that I carry with me so much, right? I have to just kind of remind myself that.
If I’m not taking care of myself now, if I’m not taking that step back when I need to be taking that step back, if I’m not taking my breaks when I need to take a break, then it’s gonna be years, you And I feel like I did burn out, and so I kind of saw how that happened. And you you get out of the thick of it, but the effects of it are still there, you know? And you can still feel the effects of it just there. It’s so hard. It’s like you’re in this like foggy state.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (15:30)
Right, right.
Yep. yeah. yeah. I hear you. I think that especially as you were mentioning your identity as a black woman and just constantly trying to reach for the stars. I mean, we know by race and gender, black women are the most educated in terms of formal education and higher education and bachelor’s degrees. And you know,
Brittney Carey (15:38)
for like years, you know? Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (16:04)
I think a lot of us are really always trying, I don’t know where it might come from as an individual, but maybe trying to find our place in the world, trying to show the world that we have a voice and to, always say like when black women are bored, like we go get degrees. Like, and that’s what I did, I did. Right?
Brittney Carey (16:13)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Not me literally looking at PhD programs last week.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (16:29)
Exactly. And when I had finished my PhD, I had pushed too hard. I had pushed way too hard. By the time I finished, everyone was asking, okay, when’s the grand party? What are we doing? Da da. I had a cute dinner with some close family and friends. And then for the next seven weeks, I slept. didn’t, I just slept at home. I, yeah, I did. And it wasn’t honestly by choice. I think my body just shut down. I’m not even gonna lie. Yeah.
Brittney Carey (16:45)
Mm -hmm.
Cool. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (16:57)
But I came back better, but I learned my lesson not to push, because it’s just not worth it at the end of the day.
Brittney Carey (17:02)
Mm -hmm.
It’s not worth it and your body will, it’ll tell you and it’ll give you the signs, it’ll give you some warnings, it’ll be like, hey, maybe you should take a break, go lay down, take a nap, I’m tired. And again, sometimes we’re just like, but I can keep pushing. And again, just because you can, does not mean you should keep pushing. Yes.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (17:10)
yeah.
Right. Exactly.
Because not me, you should. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. Look, I am working on a project. what I hope to come out of the project is that I can help inspire or share my story with others to share that, hey, I did everything the right way, if you will.
Brittney Carey (17:49)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (17:50)
I went to college, I got all these degrees, I got this big job, I did all this, and then what? And then what?
Brittney Carey (17:53)
Yeah. Yep. And then what? Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (17:59)
I think it’s so important to find satisfaction in the present and to know that that career journey is a journey. And I know we’re not even talking about DEI, I’m getting into something else, but I think it is related. I think it is related to ensuring, you just if you have to make an inclusive space for yourself too.
Brittney Carey (18:04)
Yes.
Yes.
It is, yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it’s important still on that topic of knowing when to step back. I think, you know, in social justice, there’s that idea of like, you know, stepping up and stepping back, right? And in Western culture, we kind of get very individualistic and it’s very, you know, individual focus, me focus, what do I need, all those different things. And we kind of forget the collectivist part of it, where, you know, sometimes someone can step up, but sometimes they need to step back.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (18:51)
ring.
Brittney Carey (18:55)
Right, and that leaves room for someone else to step up, right? And so that goes into building a community and building a community of people around you, building a community where you’re trying to work. And once you start doing that, and I’m incredibly lucky I have just a beautiful and amazing supporting partner. And when I get into my doing the absolute mostery, he’s like, hey, what if you just?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (19:20)
Right. I, I, yeah. And that’s such a blessing. is, whether it, and for people listening, whether it’s a partner or whether it’s a friend or, or, or a family member, having someone to kind of anchor you back and remind you that it’s not that deep and you need to sit down is so important. My husband is the same for me and constantly.
Brittney Carey (19:21)
What if you didn’t?
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yep. Yep.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (19:47)
reminds me when it’s okay to sit down and get a box of sweet treats and watch a show and forget about the world for a second.
Brittney Carey (19:51)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that is so important to find you a person who will keep you in check. You can’t control me, but but you could tell me like, hey, it seems like you’re a little tired. Do you want to you want to snack? Here’s a blanket. Let me put on the office for you. And I’m like, that’s nice. Wait a minute.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (20:04)
Right.
Right, right.
Next.
This is nice, yeah. Just, my husband knows, give me a sweet treat, a donut, a brownie, something, and I’m good.
Brittney Carey (20:24)
Yep. There you go. There you go. Yes. Yes. But shifting gears a little bit. So in terms of your work in DEI and the work that you’re currently doing, how do you measure the success of a program or a training or an initiative? What does success look like in terms of that?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (20:49)
Right, right. You know, I think in DEI work, it’s really important to have metrics and to have goals and to have timelines and to know what partners you’re working with. And so for me, one of the things that I like to do to measure what we’re working on is obviously numbers of people who have attended and data that
and assessments and things like that. I know a lot of companies do engagement surveys and things of that nature, any type of survey. But what I think is most important when measuring DEI work is it really is a feeling of culture. And it really is a feeling of…
understanding and trying to see, you know, does the culture feel different than where we were two years ago or are we where we were two years ago, right? And so that’s tough, that’s tough. And one way I like to measure that too is to see how normal PEI conversations are in the workplace or in the classroom or what have you.
Brittney Carey (21:45)
Mm
Yeah.
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (22:02)
The more people that know what D, E, and I means, that’s a win for me. Besides the assessments and the surveys and the data and the numbers and all the things, but that’s what I would say about measurement and success.
Brittney Carey (22:05)
Mm.
Yes, I think.
Yeah, because I think when people think about, you know, D .I. and stuff like this, they’re not quite thinking of it as, you know, a science, essentially. They’re not thinking of it as this very legitimate thing. And so I think being able to have those numbers say, you know, yeah, this is how we’re measuring the success of this program and really taking in this data and really making meaningful, you know, action plans because of the data that we could collect in and because of that and knowing exactly where we want the end place to be.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (22:43)
Right. Right.
Brittney Carey (22:49)
not just, yeah, you had a training and now you are now a DEI workplace and you never have to DEI ever again. That’s, yep, yep. Everyone can DEI successfully now.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (22:53)
Right. You’re an expert and everybody, yeah, everybody knows everything about DEI.
Right, right. And that’s like me, like one of the most common myths about DEI is that it’s instant and it’s not. It really takes a multi -level layer approach and it takes time. And also it’s not the responsibility of one person or one team. You have your person that might lead the initiatives and the strategy, but ultimately it’s up to everybody to be a part of the conversation and to…
Brittney Carey (23:11)
Mmm, yep.
you
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (23:31)
What ultimate success looks like, and I hate saying this, but it’s true, ultimate success looks like DEI not having a job. And I hate to say that, because I’m like, ooh, I like my job, I need my job. But again, culture shifts and changing minds and changing culture and changing behavior, it takes.
Brittney Carey (23:40)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
Mm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (23:57)
It takes a lot of time. And the idea is that one day, whether you’re in higher ed or you’re in a different space, that everybody will adopt DEI. And it’s not something separate. It’s embedded to every single thing that you do, from your recruitment to your retention to your workplace practices to the way you might be interacting with students to your orientation ceremonies, literally quite everything. That’s the goal. That’s what success looks like.
Brittney Carey (24:08)
Mm
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes, I love that because I say the same thing in education as well. You know, I’m like, yeah, in a perfect world, you know, I would still be in the classroom teaching. I would teach for the rest of my life. If the education system was perfect and had no flaws, like, yeah, I’ll just be in the classroom. I love teaching. I love being in the classroom. But, you know, my my job today exists because there are problems in the classroom and there are difficulties. And, you know, I strive to make sure that all of our classrooms are inclusive and accessible.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (24:40)
Yeah.
Brittney Carey (25:00)
And that’s the world that I want to live in and that’s the future that I want to see. So that’s just part of my role as I continue to fight for these things and talk about these things. And I’m like, yeah, I don’t want to be talking about this forever.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (25:06)
Yeah.
Why? And I don’t think that any person that is passionate about social justice and equity and inclusion issues wants to be talking about this till the end of time, but we will if we need to.
Brittney Carey (25:24)
Yeah, yeah, if it calls for it, I’ll, I will be 90 years old and I’m like, so anyways, I’ll still be out there. Yeah, I’ll be out there with with my 80, 81 degrees.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (25:29)
And another thing, right.
Mm I always say, people ask me, how did I get into DEI work? I’m like, well, was always a college student that had the megaphone in my hand who was saying something. OK? I was the person that was writing a list of student demands, right? And I think that now I’ve learned how to be more strategic with how to get change.
Brittney Carey (25:47)
Mmm. Yep.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (26:06)
but I certainly will not stop speaking up either. So I hear you.
Brittney Carey (26:11)
Yes.
Yes. And you know, speaking of kind of student activism, you know, that’s been something that has been in the news more recently with students protesting. Obviously, students have been protesting for years. They protested the Vietnam War. They protested so many things, right? And, you know, my social justice heart loves to see young people still getting actively engaged and protesting these things. you know, students are protesting, you know, the genocide that’s happening in Palestine.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (26:21)
Yeah.
yeah.
Brittney Carey (26:41)
right now and we’ve seen some mixed reactions to that. Some institutions are like, okay, I want to hear you, let’s see what we can do and some institutions have completely divested and other institutions are going in the opposite direction of that and really trying to suppress that student activism. So in terms of student activism, know, what can institutions do to respond more constructively to students, especially when they’re asking for things like
Dr. Sarah Toutant (26:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brittney Carey (27:11)
anti -racism, when they’re asking for DEI work or they’re protesting social things like that. What can institutions do to really engage with students?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (27:22)
You know, I think that student activism is a beautiful thing. as you mentioned, it’s been here for years and years and years. And I think it’s what we need. think that the young people know exactly where we’re headed and what we need to be aware of as things change and as they grow or as they don’t. So I think that institutions of higher education need to listen to students.
Brittney Carey (27:45)
Hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (27:49)
That is quite literally all that students ask for. Listen to us and don’t listen to us to respond, but listen to hear us, listen to what we’re sharing with you and be open to a new idea that might not be what you think. So I think a lot of it is really generational issues as well. Oftentimes younger generations aren’t given the same.
Brittney Carey (27:50)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (28:15)
platform for their voices to be heard. And I think that when people are listened to, it can go a long way. If you look at how things were handled at Cal State, Sacramento, really what the president there did was he started with listening sessions. He was talking to students. He was on the ground and he gained a lot of respect from students and therefore was able to
Brittney Carey (28:36)
Hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (28:43)
being conversation, being community with them and they were able to resolve because he just sat and took the time.
Brittney Carey (28:50)
Yes.
Now, I think that’s really spot on because I think, you know, part of that protesting piece is making enough noise so that you can be heard, right? Either whether that’s, you know, literally making noise, whether that’s causing an inconvenience to people and structures and things like that. But at the end of the day, it’s we have something to say. We have not been historically listened to. We’re at this point now. Listen to us. Listen to what we have to say. Listen to our point of view, where we’re coming from. You know, what do we want?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (29:00)
Right.
Brittney Carey (29:22)
And I think that’s part of that youth adult partnership, especially in higher education institutions is really forging those youth adult partnerships and utilizing, you know, working together with both young people and people who have experience in the field. That’s one of the most beautiful parts about higher education is that you have that connection and that ability to do that, which is so beautiful. And we’ve had so many beautiful things come out of that when we forged those partnerships and actually listen to young people and involve them in
Dr. Sarah Toutant (29:38)
Thank you.
Brittney Carey (29:51)
these types of decision making. That’s how we build a community within these institutions, which is so needed.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (29:56)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, radically listening, 100%. I agree. I definitely agree.
Brittney Carey (30:03)
Yes.
Yes, radically listening, I love that. So in terms for educators or educators out there, what can educators be doing either within their school community or working with admin and working with families, what can they be doing to kind of do more DEI work within those types of institutions?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (30:30)
You know, I think it’s similar to the work that I do now that’s more like in a corporate space, right?
showing people how they’re already doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work, start with what you’re already doing instead of telling people what they’re not doing. And so I would say that. What are you already doing in the classroom that’s inclusive? What are you already doing in your practices and your strategies? And I think that that’s one place to start.
Brittney Carey (30:45)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (31:03)
Another is again, like we mentioned, radically listening to what the needs are and doing kind of like a needs analysis and trying to figure out what folks are actually asking for. Because I can tell you right now, when I was in college, it was probably very different what we were asking for versus what the students in college now are asking for. And so keeping up with the times and being very much aware of the student voice and centering the student voice and everything that you do.
Brittney Carey (31:22)
Yes.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (31:32)
also making tangible action steps. Look, you’re not gonna always please every student, right? But I think it’s really important to have a plan and say, this is what we’ve noticed, this is what we’re already doing, okay? This is where we did an analysis and realized where we need to do a little bit better. And this is our plan, and this is our timeline, and this is how we’re gonna ask that you hold us to it, right?
Brittney Carey (31:32)
Okay.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (32:00)
starting somewhere and being intentional about what those pathways look like. I think oftentimes students get frustrated when, okay, you listen to me and now six months, one year later, nothing has changed. So there is a balance of listening but also having the strategic piece on how they’ll move forward too.
Brittney Carey (32:25)
Yes, yes, and students are so incredibly like they’re smart and they’re intelligent and they love to learn and especially if they’re falling.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (32:29)
Yeah.
Brittney Carey (32:33)
Yeah, students are incredibly intelligent. when you involve them in that, you know, students, especially if they’re in that adolescent phase, they tend to want things to happen immediately and happen right now. And especially when you’re in higher education, you know, institution like that, things happen very slowly, typically speaking. It’s it’s.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (32:43)
Right, right.
yeah.
Brittney Carey (32:56)
painfully slow how these things happen, but including them in that process as much as possible so that they see like, yes, I am trying to do things. It’s going to take time. We’re not going to see it tomorrow. Probably not going to see it this semester. Maybe we’ll see it next semester, but you never know, you know, and, you know, involving that in that. And that’s kind of where that youth adult partnership comes in, right? Because as the adult who has the experience in the field, who has experience with the institution, who has the experience, you know, working with these things, you can say,
Dr. Sarah Toutant (33:05)
Yeah.
Right, right, yeah.
Brittney Carey (33:25)
Yeah, this is going to take X amount of time or this is going to take a while for us to get there, but we’re going to keep trying. This is how we can do that. And then the young people are coming in there with their fresh new ideas or the ways that they are experiencing things and the ways that the world and society has shifted and changed and how perhaps the institution isn’t keeping up with that. And so, you know, that keeps, you know, us on like the finger at the pulse of what’s actually happening with young people and what’s the future that they want to see. And also just knowing that when you’re working with the government,
Dr. Sarah Toutant (33:31)
Right.
Right.
Brittney Carey (33:55)
it’s gonna take a long time.
So tell me, how do you reimagine education?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (34:02)
You know, that’s such a tough question because I was in higher education for quite a long time and now I’m not in it and I’ve left academia and so many of the people I did my PhD program with also left academia. And the reason why I think it’s different for everyone but I think the main component was that
Brittney Carey (34:22)
Hmm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (34:29)
The just moves too slow and it is part of a larger entity and system that is rooted in racism, classism, sexism, and all the many isms and phobias that exist in our society. And so when I think about reimagining education, I think about reimagining the whole system itself. And I think that there is a lot to be
Brittney Carey (34:36)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (34:58)
to be done as it pertains to higher ed. I imagine it is more accessible to people, more affordable to people. I imagine that you can walk around on campus regardless of how you look or how you present and you feel safe. I imagine that, you know,
Brittney Carey (35:00)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Thank
Dr. Sarah Toutant (35:23)
you will be learning from a diverse array of people and that higher ed really is, gets back to what it was supposed to be, which was to educate and to teach and to be in conversation and agree to disagree, right? And, know, I also would hope that it,
Brittney Carey (35:40)
Mm.
Yep.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (35:51)
did a better job at providing a pipeline for students once they graduate and giving them some more support to transition because the higher ed system that I know, you go in and bright eye and bushy tailed and you graduate and then you’re like, well now what? And how do I get a job? And how can I make my skills transferable? What does this resume look like?
Brittney Carey (36:08)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (36:17)
And do I have to use my degree in the field I thought I would? Like there’s so many, there’s so much more opportunity that I think institutions of higher education can get on and help students navigate post grad life. So, you know, that’s, that’s.
Brittney Carey (36:17)
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (36:39)
I’m interested to see how it will continue to change and evolve.
Brittney Carey (36:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, that is such a beautiful reimagining. It’s like, yes, we want it to be inclusive and welcoming and comfortable for all people to exist. And also at the same time, that post -graduate life is so daunting. It’s so daunting. I feel like after I finished my master’s, similarly, I just rested. I think I took a week off of work and I just…
Dr. Sarah Toutant (36:59)
my gosh,
Brittney Carey (37:11)
rested. I don’t think I did much but be at the beach and just exist. And that was enough. You know, same thing people were asking me like, okay, so, you know, are you gonna have a party? Are you gonna walk at graduation? I was like, I already did the walking thing. I don’t feel like it. I just don’t feel like it. I’m tired. I want to exist. You know, and it, yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (37:14)
Yep, lots enough.
Yeah. Yeah, right? Right. Yeah. -huh. -huh. No, I’m right there with you.
Brittney Carey (37:39)
It took a couple of months for me to be like, my Sundays are mine now. It was wild, because before it was like, gotta write all my papers. I got a meal prep, I got it. And I was like, whoa, I can just not do anything on a Sunday. Fascinating. Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (37:51)
There’s a lot. That’s why I always tell people, I’m like, look, if you want to go into high rent, I will be extremely honest about the sacrifices it requires. And also be extremely honest that, you know.
for the type of degree that you want. It’s not guaranteed that you’re gonna get the job that you want and that’s why you gotta get creative and that’s why you gotta get into your network and that’s why you have to be, again, not limit yourself and hire. It’s not necessarily gonna teach you that. That’s something that kinda comes with your own experience of, all right, I have these degrees and now what? Let me figure it out. And it’s tough, but it’s doable.
Brittney Carey (38:13)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (38:36)
And so what I want to encourage people that are listening to remind themselves is whether you, whatever, bachelor’s, master’s, PhD, whatever, your experience with higher ed that you have more transferable skills than you know. And it’s just about sitting down and reimagining what your life could look like and what you want it to look like.
Brittney Carey (38:54)
Mmm, yes.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, snaps for that. Because it’s so true. You graduate with this degree, and then you’re like, OK, now what? And especially people who studied education and became educators. And like we mentioned before, there’s a high rate of burnout in education. Whether you’re doing early education, K through 12, higher education, education itself, there is just incredibly high rates of burnout because they’re asking a lot of
Dr. Sarah Toutant (39:01)
Yeah.
you
Brittney Carey (39:28)
of you and you know just knowing that your skills are transferable. I’ve taken breaks from education and then felt ready to come back. You know I’ve come and go out of education. It’s always there right. We’re always going to need education. It’s not going anywhere. Yes. Yes. But I’ve taken. Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (39:37)
Yeah, right. It’s always there to come back to. Exactly. Exactly. You can go pick up a class here or pick up a class there. Right.
Brittney Carey (39:47)
Mm -hmm. Like it’s always there. You can always go back to it. like, you know, re wrapping it back around to our conversation that we kind of started on that if you need to take a break, if you need to step away and just do something else, just know that one, your skills are transferable. You’ve learned a lot of things along the way. There is especially if you study education, there is so much you can do with that. Right. You’re not, you know, you’re not just pigeonholed to this one thing. You can do so many things knowing about development, knowing about
Dr. Sarah Toutant (40:06)
Right. yeah.
Brittney Carey (40:17)
how people learn, you can do anything. Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (40:18)
You really can and it’s amazing. Like now I have a career in human resources or AKA people and culture is what we refer to and the people side of the business. And I never thought that I would be there, but it makes a lot of sense because a lot of my role is educating people. It’s facilitating, it’s conversing, it’s thinking in the future for our strategic goals. There’s so many things. mean, especially even the research portion.
Brittney Carey (40:25)
Mm
Mm
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (40:47)
Like that’s a big piece too. You learn in research in your master’s program or even in your bachelor’s or doctoral program. Research is a big thing that’s transferable into the workplace. Like there are so many opportunities and I think it’s just about how you spin your experiences and also understand that no one knows what they’re doing. We’re all just doing our best and some people make it look better than others but no one knows. Like it’s okay.
Brittney Carey (40:57)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, Yeah.
No one knows. Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (41:15)
to take your time and figure it out. I still don’t know what I’m doing half the time, I’m joking, but you know, some days I’m like, yeah, and other days I’m like, how do we, what, when do we, and that’s okay, it’s part of the journey, it’s part of journey.
Brittney Carey (41:20)
Girl, same. Yeah.
It’s part of the journey, it’s part of life. I always say my favorite part about turning 30 is I don’t know what I’m doing and I’m more okay with that.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (41:36)
yeah, I my mom, is…
in her eighties actually. And she always tells me, I don’t know what I’m doing still. I still don’t know. And I think that’s the beauty of life and career, life and career and all the other things, personal life too. like, you know, we’re all just doing our best. This is the first time that I’ve ever experienced being in this stage of my life. I’ve never done it before.
Brittney Carey (41:54)
That’s the beauty of it, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (42:12)
And I’m sure I’ll be saying the same in a year. I’ve never done it. I’m still figuring it out. Like being in the present is such a gift though. And so I think that goes for anyone who is thinking about where they see themselves and how they can show up in their career or their workplace or what have you is just do your best. That’s it. And take breaks. It’s okay. It’s okay.
Brittney Carey (42:16)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Keep learning. Take your breaks. Do your best. You’re golden. That’s it. It’s not, yeah, it’s not that deep. Well, Dr. Toutant I want to thank you so much for joining me and engaging me in this conversation. I feel invigorated. This was amazing. Where can my audience find you?
Dr. Sarah Toutant (42:39)
That’s it. It’s not that deep.
So you can find me on LinkedIn under Sarah Tutant and maybe in the future we’ll get the website back and running. But for now you can find me on LinkedIn.
Brittney Carey (43:06)
Okay, and I’ll link that down in the show notes. So if you want to see what Dr. Tauton is up to, you can see it down there. Again, thank you so much for joining me. This was absolutely amazing. And I just I have all the good the good feels and good energy now.
Dr. Sarah Toutant (43:19)
Good, thank you for having me. I had a great time. Thank you.
Brittney Carey (43:23)
Yes, thank you.
Brittney Carey (43:26)
Thank you for tuning into Conscious Pathways. Don’t forget to like, follow, and subscribe to Conscious Pathways wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to leave a rating or review. It really does help the podcast to find more listeners just like you. And until next time, navigate your conscious journey with courage and kindness, and I’ll see you there for more transformative conversations and education.